Uncontrolled airspace?

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monchavo
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Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby monchavo » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:57 am

I have a question which occurred to me today.

With a large volume of very rich people with a lot of very expensive toys, I wondered if there was any part of the world where there was what is effectively "uncontrolled" airspace, enabling people to do things which would be otherwise considered unacceptable. This is a semi serious question. "Russia" is not an acceptable answer here. :p

For example:

Testing the altitude limits of your aircraft. Say, a privately owned A340-600 owner wanted to see if his aircraft would fly at 55,000 ft - could he ask the pilot to do it and then not face consequences?

Or do an aerobatic manouver like a loop the loop in a jet not certified to do it "for shits and giggles" without consequence?

Just interested in the potential regulations and certifications that might be transgressed by such behaviour or if there are some things that are permissable.

Thanks

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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby flyboy2548m » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:53 pm

Yes.
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monchavo
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby monchavo » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:51 pm

Yes.
Thanks!

Where, though?

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3WE
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby 3WE » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:52 am

Even though, I am ass-hat, outsider parlour talker, I do have a PPL and a crude understanding of uncontrolled airspace.

First, I’ll say that it’s a little complicated and some Google work on the AIM will give you a rough understanding.

Edit- a linky: https://www.gleim.com/aviation/faraim/? ... B0%5D=SFAR

The big-jet airspace (Class A) 14.5 (or 18k) up to 60K, so you do have uncontrolled airspace, but you’d have to go through controlled airspace to get there.

In the US, I think stuff is controlled ABOVE 14,000 feet, and Gabe may spout off if there’s a ceiling.

There are also a couple of big airport control areas and regular airport control tower areas and airspace that’s controlled when it gets IMCeeeee

I don’t know that there’s great airspace that allows wanton cowboy idiocy- maybe there’s some super high altitude where you can monkey around.

I also know that in many instances, you could ask permission to do slightly non-conventional stuff.

Hopefully, this is a start.

Sincerely yours,

3BS,
Commercial Pilot,
Arthur Vandelay Organic Plant Nutrients, Inc.
Aviation Consultant regarded higher than Kit Darby, by flyboy5428m, himself.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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monchavo
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby monchavo » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:47 am

Even though, I am ass-hat, outsider parlour talker, I do have a PPL and a crude understanding of uncontrolled airspace.

First, I’ll say that it’s a little complicated and some Google work on the AIM will give you a rough understanding.

Edit- a linky: https://www.gleim.com/aviation/faraim/? ... B0%5D=SFAR

The big-jet airspace (Class A) 14.5 (or 18k) up to 60K, so you do have uncontrolled airspace, but you’d have to go through controlled airspace to get there.

In the US, I think stuff is controlled ABOVE 14,000 feet, and Gabe may spout off if there’s a ceiling.

There are also a couple of big airport control areas and regular airport control tower areas and airspace that’s controlled when it gets IMCeeeee

I don’t know that there’s great airspace that allows wanton cowboy idiocy- maybe there’s some super high altitude where you can monkey around.

I also know that in many instances, you could ask permission to do slightly non-conventional stuff.

Hopefully, this is a start.

Sincerely yours,

3BS,
Commercial Pilot,
Arthur Vandelay Organic Plant Nutrients, Inc.
Aviation Consultant regarded higher than Kit Darby, by flyboy5428m, himself.

Thanks, that was useful. I think my question is multi-faceted - firstly I guess I was interested in the restrictions placed on behaviour in the air and what you're allowed to do, and secondly what might prevent someone from testing the limits of their aircraft - a bit like you see idiots doing stupid things in expensive cars.

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3WE
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby 3WE » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:45 am

Thanks, that was useful. I think my question is multi-faceted - firstly I guess I was interested in the restrictions placed on behaviour in the air and what you're allowed to do, and secondly what might prevent someone from testing the limits of their aircraft - a bit like you see idiots doing stupid things in expensive cars.
“What you’re allowed to do”.

Well, we’re not allowed to delete accidental double posts on this forum… :lol:
Last edited by 3WE on Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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3WE
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby 3WE » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:46 am

Thanks, that was useful. I think my question is multi-faceted - firstly I guess I was interested in the restrictions placed on behaviour in the air and what you're allowed to do, and secondly what might prevent someone from testing the limits of their aircraft - a bit like you see idiots doing stupid things in expensive cars.
“What you’re allowed to do”. I think that’s too wide of a question- consult the FARS for hundreds of scenarios.

There’s probably some freedom to open the throttle and check speeds on piston aircraft, but there’s some low altitude speed considerations and airspeed limitations that have some real, practical logic behind them if you get into high performance aircraft.

Do you want to discuss a scenario? What you are doing in what plane might guide us ass-hat parlor talkers to a few reasonable answers…or not.

As is typical, flyboy’s response is accurate and somewhat appropriate, and we should note it.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Gabriel
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby Gabriel » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:40 pm

Note that uncontrolled airspace only means that ATC service is not provided (except flight following which is optional and is not considered a proper ATC because it is only advisory so it doesn't Control). But if it belongs to a country, the laws of the country still applies (and even if you are in international airspace there are laws that apply, like if you commit murder on a plane while in international airspace you are still going to be prosecuted)

Every country has an equivalent of these FARs:

91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

§ 91.13 Careless or reckless operation.
(a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

And the part of "endangering the life or property or others" is taken with extreme liberty by the coeternities, like "fish are another" or "the environment is property of everybody".

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3WE
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby 3WE » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:48 pm

A-340 at FL550. I SUPPOSE you could ASK. Would authorities come for you later? I wonder if the Red Bull stunt is an indicator? (Admittedly, not_the same situation).

That being said, you will probably hit coffin corner where any control input causes break up and did dieding.

Roll a jet? There’s probably airspace where the only risk is someone SEEING you…there may be speed restrictions where you might be tracked on radar.
Commercial Pilot, Vandelay Industries, Inc., Plant Nutrient Division.

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Gabriel
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby Gabriel » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:42 am

Try your stupid tricks here:

https://allthatsinteresting.com/point-nemo

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monchavo
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Re: Uncontrolled airspace?

Postby monchavo » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:51 am

Try your stupid tricks here:

https://allthatsinteresting.com/point-nemo
Great article - thank you!


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