DP,FB, new security measures, tell me it ain't so?

[VectorForFood]

Canadian airlines have been told amongst other things, some interim measures due to the latest attack:

1.)Blinds SHALL remain shut when operating below FL180 in American Airspace
2.)Within 1 Hour prior to arrival and inside US Airspace passengers MUST remain seated. (No Bathroom use either)
3.)Within 1 hour prior to arrival to a US destination, no passenger may access their carry-on luggage.
4.) On-board entertainment (Live TV's) will be turned off 1 hour prior to arrival inside US Airspace.
5.) There will be no broadcast of any kind informing passengers of their geographic position.

SERIOUSLY?

I hope this crap I'm reading on the Canadian boards is NOT true, if it is what a freakin joke...

I realize the gov't does this for public perception, and I am hopeful that the people in charge of such decisions realize these measures will do nothing to prevent another attack? There are a thousand ways for a terrorist to accomplish their goal, taking off your shoes, and no TV is not going to stop them... another knee jerk reaction on behalf of the DHS for the benefit for the average joe

Hopefully it won't last?

[Sickbag]

Don't fly to the US.

Simples.

[flyboy2548m]

Canadian airlines have been told amongst other things, some interim measures due to the latest attack:

1.)Blinds SHALL remain shut when operating below FL180 in American Airspace
2.)Within 1 Hour prior to arrival and inside US Airspace passengers MUST remain seated. (No Bathroom use either)
3.)Within 1 hour prior to arrival to a US destination, no passenger may access their carry-on luggage.
4.) On-board entertainment (Live TV's) will be turned off 1 hour prior to arrival inside US Airspace.
5.) There will be no broadcast of any kind informing passengers of their geographic position.

We've been told nothing resembling #1 or #4, but the rest (for now, at least) are true.

[supersean]

The control I do not understand is that you cannot have anything on your lap (blanket, computer, bag, etc) for the last hour of flight. Is there not enough controls in place to ensure the device does not get on board in the first place???!!!!!!!

[flyboy2548m]

The control I do not understand is that you cannot have anything on your lap (blanket, computer, bag, etc) for the last hour of flight. Is there not enough controls in place to ensure the device does not get on board in the first place???!!!!!!!

Well, sean, when you consider that this is the "control that makes sure nothing gets on in the first place"...



I especially like the second one from left in the middle row.

[Putt4Par]

Canadian airlines have been told amongst other things, some interim measures due to the latest attack:

1.)Blinds SHALL remain shut when operating below FL180 in American Airspace
2.)Within 1 Hour prior to arrival and inside US Airspace passengers MUST remain seated. (No Bathroom use either)
3.)Within 1 hour prior to arrival to a US destination, no passenger may access their carry-on luggage.
4.) On-board entertainment (Live TV's) will be turned off 1 hour prior to arrival inside US Airspace.
5.) There will be no broadcast of any kind informing passengers of their geographic position.
?

I am all up for security measures but the above list is ridiculous. All it does is lower the risk of a terrorist blowing up and airplane in mid air one hour before landing. So all they have to do is to plan blowing it up 1 hour and 10 minutes prior to landing.

And all those years of not being able to bring in lotions or water through security didn't quite pay off as this guy was able to get all he needed inside the airplane.

Two things need to happen: we need to get rid of the political correctness crap and use profiling. Oh, did I say profiling???
Yes. Don't waste time double checking pilots and old ladies. Go for the idiot that looks arab, young, and nervous. After all, I don't see a lot of radical latin catholics blowing up airplanes, Utah mormon radicals blowing up buildings, or asian businessmen yelling "Allah!" before they blow themselves up in a crowded place. I am in my early 40s and have dark hair. I am willing to go through second inspection every time I fly considering I may fit the profile. I don't care. And the second thing, talk to israel and learn something about how to keep airplanes safe. They obviously do a good job.

[ZilogMan]

Took a day to think about it. Still think this is the most stupid set of rules ever, won't improve airline safety a bit. And yeah, Islam wins again, bravo USA for playing their game...

[IntheShade]

I think every passenger should be connected to faulty AirBus A-380 wiring forcing them to be under the threat of being shocked.

[Gabriel]

2.)Within 1 Hour prior to arrival and inside US Airspace passengers MUST remain seated. (No Bathroom use either)
3.)Within 1 hour prior to arrival to a US destination, no passenger may access their carry-on luggage.
5.) There will be no broadcast of any kind informing passengers of their geographic position.

We've been told nothing resembling #1 or #4, but the rest (for now, at least) are true.

Old: Ding (seat belt sign illuminates)
"Ladies and gentlemen, we have started our descent to La Guardia airport, were we expect we will be landing in about twenty minutes. You are kindly requested to fasten your seat belts, close your trays, and put your seat-back in the up-right position. We hope you've enjoyed your flight and thanks for choosing XYZ airlines"

New: Ding (seat belt signs illuminates)
"Ladies and gentlemen, we are an undisclosed amount of time, but more than one hour, from landing at an undisclosed airport. You are required to remain seated. Attempting to go to the lavatory or to reach your carry-on luggage will force us to consider you a terrorist and act accordingly. By the way, take the opportunity to fasten your seat-belt, close your trays, and put your seat-back in the up-right position, since if I told you to do this at a later time I could lead you to think that we are close to our intended destination, something that I am not allowed to do. For the same reason, cabin crew prepare for landing now. We hope you're enjoyed your flight and thank you for not blowing the plane"

Version for regional flights: (before take-off briefing)
"Ladies and gentlemen. Being this a less-than-one-hour flight, you are allowed to remain seated, with your seat-belt fastened, the tray closed, and the seat-back in the upright position for the entire flight doing nothing but staying alive. The use of any device is forbidden, including the pen in your carry-on luggage. The lavatories are closed down, and you won't hear from us until after landing. We hope you'll enjoy your flight. Not really"

Two things need to happen: we need to get rid of the political correctness crap and use profiling. Oh, did I say profiling???
Yes. Don't waste time double checking pilots and old ladies. Go for the idiot that looks arab, young, and nervous. After all, I don't see a lot of radical latin catholics blowing up airplanes, Utah mormon radicals blowing up buildings, or asian businessmen yelling "Allah!" before they blow themselves up in a crowded place.

One day you start profiling, and the next day you have all the above.
(I wouldn't care being "profiled" either, in fact i didn't care when I was "randomly" selected for a detailed screening. But I simply don't think that profiling would work either)

[David Hilditch]

Go for the idiot that looks arab, young, and nervous......

Except that our Christmas guy was not Arab..... Anyway, I think you'll find there is already considerably more profiling of various kinds under way than you might think.

In general, we ourselves should not overreact to the overreaction. Clearly there have been failures in the process here. However, authorities have to take immediate steps in case this incident is part of a series of similar actions. We now know that some of these measures have already been eased, and I expect airlines and flightcrews will decide to exercise considerable discretion in how these measures are adopted.

[el]

I believe these rules are put in place for a few days only.

This is the only place, however, that I have heard about the shut blinds. Isn't there a rule that they have to be open for landing (and take-off)?

[IntheShade]

Go for the idiot that looks arab, young, and nervous......

Except that our Christmas guy was not Arab..... Anyway, I think you'll find there is already considerably more profiling of various kinds under way than you might think.

In general, we ourselves should not overreact to the overreaction. Clearly there have been failures in the process here. However, authorities have to take immediate steps in case this incident is part of a series of similar actions. We now know that some of these measures have already been eased, and I expect airlines and flightcrews will decide to exercise considerable discretion in how these measures are adopted.

David--in a low level constant threat enviroment there is no security measures that will 100% work.

These guys are constantly probing for the hole in the fence.

The real problem with profiling is it works and takes the thin illusion of equality between peoples/religions/regional areas.

So what do you screen for?

--Muslims
--Arabs
--Pakistani
--Indians
--African Sub-Sahara
--Greeks
--Turks
--Bosnians

And then just for good measure the French because the political structure there has allowed dissidents, degenerates, and politcal ousted statesmen into it for years.

[Carlos G.]

David--in a low level constant threat enviroment there is no security measures that will 100% work.

These guys are constantly probing for the hole in the fence.

The real problem with profiling is it works and takes the thin illusion of equality between peoples/religions/regional areas.

So what do you screen for?

--Muslims
--Arabs
--Pakistani
--Indians
--African Sub-Sahara
--Greeks
--Turks
--Bosnians

And then just for good measure the French because the political structure there has allowed dissidents, degenerates, and politcal ousted statesmen into it for years.

Gorgeous... ITS at its best.

[Putt4Par]

Hilditch; Except that our Christmas guy was not Arab..... Anyway, I think you'll find there is already considerably more profiling of various kinds under way than you might think.

Thanks for pointing out that, David. Yes, this particular guy was African. I am waiting to find out why he was not in the terror suspect list of our country, considering England did have him there.

ITS:
So what do you screen for?

You look at the last 20 years of terrorism, look at the terrorists, and come up with a profile...to the best of your ability. 18-40 year old male, bla, bla, bla.
Yes, many people will fall under that but then you select among them....if it is a 20 year old white kid with a surfer tan and wearing a Corona t-shirt and on his way to Fort Lauderdale, you let him go. You select who looks suspicious, nervous, and who fits the profile and select them for secondary inspection. That has to be better than wasting time with pilots, old ladies, and little white kids in strollers traveling with their parents.

[David Hilditch]

David--in a low level constant threat enviroment there is no security measures that will 100% work.

These guys are constantly probing for the hole in the fence.

The real problem with profiling is it works and takes the thin illusion of equality between peoples/religions/regional areas.

Absolutely. I’m not against some intelligent profiling – behavioral even more than racial/ethnic. Indeed, as I said, it already goes on beneath the radar. But it cannot work on its own – like all security, it has to be part of a more effective joined-up layered process, including deterrence in the first place, intelligence triggered by the booking process, joining up the dots re: lists/visas, multiple physical checks at airports, better screening technology, individuals more committed to being effective etc. etc. There are too many government agencies involved, and for far too many people along the security chain, it’s just a 9-to-5 pass-the-parcel job.

[David Hilditch]

I am waiting to find out why he was not in the terror suspect list of our country, considering England did have him there.

He was – he just wasn’t on the more restrictive No-Fly list. He probably should have been on the latter, given that it was no less than his father who tipped off the US - but it’s very easy to have hindsight here. The more important question is why his previously granted multiple-entry US visa was not canceled, or at least marked for special attention.

[VectorForFood]

Those AD members who have been around for a while will remember why I think that the following photo is an example of the greatest threat to Airline security.


It is meant as an example only, and you could fill in just about any item that is shipped as cargo on revenue flights...

This post is meant in jest, but only sort of, the issue I still believe is the greatest hole in security around the world.

[Ed]

Those AD members who have been around for a while will remember why I think that the following photo is an example of the greatest threat to Airline security.


It is meant as an example only, and you could fill in just about any item that is shipped as cargo on revenue flights...

This post is meant in jest, but only sort of, the issue I still believe is the greatest hole in security around the world.

I somewhat understand your sentiment, but do you really know what kind of package interrogation goes on behind the scenes?

If we could nail people with the same radiation we nail packages with, this terrorist wannabe would have been discovered as carrying explosive components. One simple element gives it away: nitrogen (or, to be even more obfuscating, C-N-O ratios).

These terrorist pigs can do a lot of things, but they cannot change the laws of physics.

The greatest threat we have to airline security is political correctness, and the fact that most of the workers in airports can sympathize with their foreign brethren, since they are one generation (or less) from from their roots of kicking rocks around in some God-awful desert in some God-forsaken country. Just take a look around any airport, especially in large hubs. I routinely get pulled aside for secondary screening: what profile are they following? The big blond hair blue eyed clean cut terrorist? Funny thing is, I look at the people screening me and I ask to myself: "Who's screening you?"

Ed

[Tesla]

David--in a low level constant threat enviroment there is no security measures that will 100% work.

These guys are constantly probing for the hole in the fence.

The real problem with profiling is it works and takes the thin illusion of equality between peoples/religions/regional areas.

So what do you screen for?

--Muslims
--Arabs
--Pakistani
--Indians
--African Sub-Sahara
--Greeks
--Turks
--Bosnians

And then just for good measure the French because the political structure there has allowed dissidents, degenerates, and politcal ousted statesmen into it for years.

--Disgruntled Fedex flight crew

[PurduePilot]

I believe these rules are put in place for a few days only.

This is the only place, however, that I have heard about the shut blinds. Isn't there a rule that they have to be open for landing (and take-off)?

Security is more important than safety. You would know that if you weren't a liberal fascist terrorist.

[VectorForFood]

Those AD members who have been around for a while will remember why I think that the following photo is an example of the greatest threat to Airline security.


It is meant as an example only, and you could fill in just about any item that is shipped as cargo on revenue flights...

This post is meant in jest, but only sort of, the issue I still believe is the greatest hole in security around the world.

I somewhat understand your sentiment, but do you really know what kind of package interrogation goes on behind the scenes?

If we could nail people with the same radiation we nail packages with, this terrorist wannabe would have been discovered as carrying explosive components. One simple element gives it away: nitrogen (or, to be even more obfuscating, C-N-O ratios).

These terrorist pigs can do a lot of things, but they cannot change the laws of physics.

The greatest threat we have to airline security is political correctness, and the fact that most of the workers in airports can sympathize with their foreign brethren, since they are one generation (or less) from from their roots of kicking rocks around in some God-awful desert in some God-forsaken country. Just take a look around any airport, especially in large hubs. I routinely get pulled aside for secondary screening: what profile are they following? The big blond hair blue eyed clean cut terrorist? Funny thing is, I look at the people screening me and I ask to myself: "Who's screening you?"

Ed

Ed, unless things have changed, I used to work for a company who had a cargo division, for the everyday shipment of cargo there is little to no screening done if the shipper is a "known shipper", that level of security alone I was told is enough by Transport Canada standards, and covers everyone from Canada Post, right down to the regular seafood shipper sending boxes of lobster in the belly of a domestic passenger flight, how is it done in the states? from what I read on the interweb, which I admit is not reliable, it's not much better.

My point is, is that these boxes come from the seafood plant, on a truck, into the cargo room if they are a known shipper, then they are simply put straight on the airplane. No chemical scans, no dog sniffers (except at complete random)

This didn't just happen where I worked, there was an investigative report on the CBC which was quickly hushed up by CATCA and TC it seemed as nothing ever came of it.

Now if some random joe blow shows up to ship something the parcel was completely inspected inside and out, and ran through an X-ray machine same as checked luggage standards.

Bottom line, in my mind all it takes is one person to get a job at one of these "known shipper" outfits and the whole system is compromised.

We all know the reasons why, this system is reactive, not proactive, and that's not going to change.

Now if in the last year there has been a profound change in how things are done, then I apologize, but from what I'm told, it's still the same.

[VectorForFood]

The second threat I would list to aviation safety is:



I realize most security measures are done simply and only for public perception, but is the general public really that stupid that they think an "airport" is confined to the terminal buildings?

If you want to really SECURE an airplane, the impossible has to happen at least by our standards.

Electrified fences with a 24 hour constant foot patrols by trained armed guards, combined with security cameras, every single passenger strip searched, their luggage emptied out onto the floor and screened by every possible machine known to man, same for checked luggage, visable armed guards on EVERY airplane.. and on and on....

Is this going to happen? Of course not, at least not anytime soon, the bottom line is (and I think everyone with a brain knows this) is that if a terrorist wants to gain access and blow up an airplane they will eventually succeed if they are willing to try a thousand times and fail, the current system is not "flawed" it simply does not have the layers required to "lock-down" an airplanes access.

Anyone thinking that these jackals will not succeed again is kidding themselves, it's unfortunately only a matter of time, now that timeframe all depends on how much money governments of the world are going to be willing to spend.

The problem as I see it, is that we are trying to find rational solutions to irrational problems and people, it will never happen IMO.

[supersean]

I just found how the TSA trains its top flight team:

[IntheShade]

From another airlines message line:

"In this business we are faced with a tough problem: the TSA is falling all over itself to not discriminate and allow these people on our planes; our government is releasing known terrorists that turn around and plot our destruction. In the end, our security depends on your professionalism and vigilance. The threat is real -- do not let your guard down! You -- not the TSA, not the Company, are the last line of defense. If you think the security of your flight is in jeopardy, stop and get it resolved."

"This is an appeal to all flight crews to be especially alert as a result of the attempt to blow-up the Northwest flight on Christmas Day. It should now be obvious to all that the security procedures forced upon us by the TSA and Homeland Security have in fact turned out to be the facade that we all knew them to be. The latest TSA knee-jerk response is more of the same; however the company and the flight crews have no choice but to comply. Therefore we are asking all crews, both international and domestic, to be at a heightened state of security awareness.

We know the latest procedures from the aviation 'security experts' at the TSA are ridiculous. No announcements about route of flight? What's next, closing the shades and not looking out the windows? Full body scans and pat-downs of passengers as they board? Sounds like a pervert's dream come true. We've had a shoe-bomber so we have to take off our shoes; we've had liquid-bombers so we can't have shampoo; now we've had an underwear bomber; is our underwear next on the no-fly list? We don't like it, the Company doesn't like it, and the traveling public doesn't like it. However, the TSA has the authority to impose these procedures and the airlines must comply. Stay up-to-date on and know the procedures; for example, as a working crewmember you are still exempt from the ban on liquids and pat-downs.

The TSA is reacting to the last threat, fighting the last battle. Our enemies will try something else next time. Security procedures based on political correctness will encourage, not deter, our enemies."

[Ed]

From another airlines message line:

"In this business we are faced with a tough problem: the TSA is falling all over itself to not discriminate and allow these people on our planes; our government is releasing known terrorists that turn around and plot our destruction. In the end, our security depends on your professionalism and vigilance. The threat is real -- do not let your guard down! You -- not the TSA, not the Company, are the last line of defense. If you think the security of your flight is in jeopardy, stop and get it resolved."

"This is an appeal to all flight crews to be especially alert as a result of the attempt to blow-up the Northwest flight on Christmas Day. It should now be obvious to all that the security procedures forced upon us by the TSA and Homeland Security have in fact turned out to be the facade that we all knew them to be. The latest TSA knee-jerk response is more of the same; however the company and the flight crews have no choice but to comply. Therefore we are asking all crews, both international and domestic, to be at a heightened state of security awareness.

We know the latest procedures from the aviation 'security experts' at the TSA are ridiculous. No announcements about route of flight? What's next, closing the shades and not looking out the windows? Full body scans and pat-downs of passengers as they board? Sounds like a pervert's dream come true. We've had a shoe-bomber so we have to take off our shoes; we've had liquid-bombers so we can't have shampoo; now we've had an underwear bomber; is our underwear next on the no-fly list? We don't like it, the Company doesn't like it, and the traveling public doesn't like it. However, the TSA has the authority to impose these procedures and the airlines must comply. Stay up-to-date on and know the procedures; for example, as a working crewmember you are still exempt from the ban on liquids and pat-downs.

The TSA is reacting to the last threat, fighting the last battle. Our enemies will try something else next time. Security procedures based on political correctness will encourage, not deter, our enemies."

Not to mention that the TSA recently released by accident its own screening procedures manual onto the http://www.internet.com

No shit, you can google it. They had blocked out sensitive portions, but within about 10 seconds of it being released, someone had 'unblocked' the sensitive areas and re-released it. Unbelievable.

Ed