Gabriel Wins....

[Dummy Pilot]

A Flight Crew Bulletin has been issued for us which represents the first step in the process of permanently changing the Volume I manual. The FCB details the new background on the procedures for 'Approach to Stall'. Essentially the 'Approach to Stall' will now be treated as an actual stall and any attempt to limit altitude loss is completely de-emphasized.

The first steps formerly were TOGA power...disconect A/P and A/T.... and adjust pitch as required to minimize altitude loss (5-10 Nose up normally did the trick)

The new steps are: Disconnect A/P and A/T ......Smoothly apply nose down elevator to reduce AOA until buffet/shaker stops. It may be necessary to decrease pitch below the horizon and accept an altitude loss....TOGA

[3WE]

EPIC!

[PurduePilot]

What do you do if you're 100 feet AGL?

[Hazmat]

What do you do if you're 100 feet AGL?

Pray?

[Ancient Mariner]

What do you do if you're 100 feet AGL?

Land.
Per

[Gabriel]

What do you do if you're 100 feet AGL?

Note that it says (with some added comments between brackets):

"Disconnect A/P and A/T ......Smoothly apply nose down elevator to reduce AOA until [and barely enough to make the] buffet/shaker stops. It may be necessary [but it may be not necessary] to decrease pitch below the horizon and accept an altitude loss....[while simultaneously applying] TOGA"

If that doesn't work, keeping the nose high the horizon with the buffet buttering and/or the shaker shaking will not work any better.

It can happen that simply there is no way to prevent ground contact, be it with the old or the new procedure, case in which it's much better to do it while applying the new procedure since that ensures minimum vertical sped at impact and that you keep roll control.

[Gabriel]

Gabriel Wins...

Well, I'd like to see how the procedure is finally worded. At first sight it looks to me that now they went too far to the other extreme.

If ground contact is not of concern, then Ok, forget about the altitude until you recover from the stall (or approach to stall) situation.
But I think that if ground contact is of concern, then it's important to minimize altitude loss, so the reduction in pitch cannot be so "liberal" (while the shaker or buffet should always be an upper limit, even if ground contact is the most serious concern).
Also, if ground contact is of immediate concern (descending into the ground) or not so immediate (terrain or obstacles ahead, a climb gradient must be established), then it's important to apply TOGA immediately.
I'd expect those things being mentioned. I wouldn't like to change pilots failing to recover from stalls for pilots flying into the ground when there was an out.

My ideal procedure:

Simultaneously:
1- Apply nose down elevator at least as necessary to stop the buffet or stick shaker.
2- Apply thrust as necessary to achieve the desired flight path.

Notes:
a) If ground contact is of immediate concern, then nose down elevator must be applied only as necessary to stop the buffet or stickshaker, and then modulated to keep the AoA at the onset of or intermittent buffet or stick shaker. Whenever the buffet or stick shaker starts again, the AoA must be reduced again and the cycle repeated until a flight path that clears the ground or obstacles is established.
b) If ground contact is of immediate concern, then TOGA thrust must be immediately applied.
c) In certain cases full nose down elevator might be necessary or insufficient to stop the stickshaker or buffet. Be ready to apply nose-down trim as necessary if that's not enough.

[Hazmat]

Isn't it time you guys stepped in the 21st century and deal with stall/ near stall in the Airbus kind of way ?
In essence if you let things degrade this far , maybe it's time for the computer to kick you in the ass and set up for GA automatically by going into APHA-Floor protection.

[3WE]

I have an even shorter procedure than Gabriels:

If after applying full power and carefully managing attitude and airspeed, if the stall warning is still going off and the plane is still mushing, still descending, still dropping wings, then don't just sit there locked blindly in the former-book-prescribed climb attitude...

...maybe drop the nose a little.

[Gabriel]

Dummy,

Can you share with the full FCB (at least the part regarding stalls) or you are not allowed?

[Gabriel]

Very interesting article from Air Transport World. Excrept (the part that proves that I won indeed):

Up until mid-2010, says CAE Chief Safety Officer Lou Nemeth, Pilot Testing Standards emphasized shedding as little altitude as possible. He believes that’s one of the factors underpinning those stubborn LOC statistics. “Many regulators around the world follow the FAA [PTS] standard,” he says. “It required three stalls: A takeoff and departure stall, a clean stall and a landing stall. And in all three of those cases there was language in [the] Testing Standard that required a minimum altitude loss in the recovery—and no, or little, emphasis on controlling angle of attack.”

Nemeth and others got together in international working groups to shift that emphasis. FAA’s Stall/Stickpusher Working Group, the Aviation Rulemaking Committee (which Nemeth chairs) and the International Committee for Aviation Training in Extended Envelopes (whose training element he co-chairs) all recommended changing the standard to focus on reducing angle of attack. “A number of the national aviation authorities within the European Community, as well as around the world, have sent out safety bulletins and advisory guidance” to do precisely that, to “manage angle of attack as a first priority,” he says. That means adjusting angle of attack to ensure a stall doesn't onset as well as recovering from one should it occur, he notes.

http://atwonline.com/operations-mainten ... ntrol-0401

[flyboy2548m]

Dummy,

Can you share with the full FCB (at least the part regarding stalls) or you are not allowed?

Is an FCB same as a QMJ only different?

[PurduePilot]

Is an FCB same as a QMJ only different?

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Gabriel]

Is an FCB same as a QMJ only different?

I don't know. Ask Dummy. He's the one who brought the FCB issue.